Thursday, April 15, 2010

Greenwich-in-Deptford (2)

I just had a party campaign leaflet delivered through my door.  Only it's for Spencer Drury, currently a Greenwich Councillor for the Conservative Party who is standing for the Greenwich and Woolwich seat.

''As a Greenwich Councillor, he knows and fights for the issues which bother local people''

As a local person, one of the issues that bothers me is politicians who don't know which constituency Crossfields is in.  Campaigning on someone else's turf is already probably a bit of a no-no, assuming Deptford is in Greenwich is downright arrogant incompetence.

So, if you see this man, be a good Deptford citizen and tell him he's lost.  And then politely direct him back to his own constituency.


  1. Well, to be fair on them the Greenwich & Woolwich constituency does take in the Greenwich borough bits of Deptford - but yes, blue bins and signs marked "LEWISHAM HOMES" are a clue when you go south of Berthon Street. I had the leaflet too (but then I'm bona fide G&W here in Charlton) and it's marked "election communication", so it may be a Post Office issue. Still funny, though.

    There's one boundary oddity just south of Crossfields - the Deals Gateway (once "OneSE8") development is in Lewisham borough, but you can only reach it, at either end, from Greenwich borough. Like a strange corner that's somehow declared UDI.

  2. Don't send him back, we don't want him.

  3. Well it gets my goat that the end of my road proclaims ''Greenwich Creekside'' when it's in Deptford - ok, administered by Greenwich Council but it's still Deptford. Lewisham are just as bad - your first indication that you are in Deptford when you come down the A2 is a big blue '''Welcome to Lewisham'' sign. And the local ward is now New Cross. And I could go on (and probably will at a later date...)

    Oh, if you're on a bike you can get to SE8 from Lewisham. There's a small street that looks like it only goes to the Thames Water building but it actually lead to the estate. Granted you can't drive through because it's bollarded. Beck Close off Coldbath Street. Handy to know when you've got a load of shopping because there are no climbs.

    BTW, I think you're going to take the King of the Streets title!

  4. And Beck Close and Coldbath Street may both be SE13... but they're Greenwich borough. My head spins too.

    I'll have to take another look at the Streets vid - poignant now developers have ruined that stretch of riverside walk...

  5. ...the Tories haven't a chance. The problem is to get rid of New Labour in the local council and replace it with a nice mixture of Green, Lib Dems and social democrats like PeopleBeforeProfit.

    The vote for Mayor to get rid of Steve Bullock probably needs a tip to the Lib Dems.

    The vote for MP is a slightly different story where the Labour vote has rarely dropped below 50% (perhaps because it hasn't previously had any credible alternatives). Perhaps we should call Paddy Power for the odds.

    William Hill shows 1/66 to Joan, 14/1 to Greens, 33/1 Lib Dems.
    Paddy Power shows 1/100 to Joan, 14 to Greens, 40 to Lib Dems.

    Best odds are 3/50 on Labour from Ladbrokes at this time...

  6. "and replace it with a nice mixture of Green, Lib Dems and social democrats like PeopleBeforeProfit."

    sounds good to me , i'd like to know where i can put my vote to get it's best use to oust labour from lewisham , tactically speaking ..

  7. You should shop around, Sue. You might get better odds at the Paddy Power Arms.

  8. The Green addresses for Greenwich & Woolwich (Andy Hewett) came to my place today - so that's definitely a Royal Mail cock-up that saw you get the wrong Tory ones.

    I really, really hope the Green ones haven't spilled into the wrong constituency too!

  9. That was Mushroom, Marmoset!

  10. Oops, apologies to Sue and Mushroom Diet - it's all too confusing!

  11. The new building on Creek Road 'Teatro' is variously described in one sentence as "on the outskirts of Greenwich, bordering Greenwich, close to the amenities of Greenwich, nearest station Cutty Sark Gardens at Greenwich.......not a mention that it is in Deptford. Greenwich now seems to have reached Deptford Church Street, can it possibly progress any further?

  12. And it appears that the cultural thieving continues. The Greenwich Phantom was asked what she/he knew about Question Time being filmed in Greenwich - not knowing, it was the subject of today's blog. And now it appears that it's not being filmed in Greenwich at all, it's being filmed in the Laban, which by anybody's reckoning is in Deptford, on the Deptford side of Deptford Creek and south of the area of Deptford administered by Greenwich Borough.

    Link here:

  13. I'd like to know from Darryl how Greenwich manages its council homes. If they are not busy selling them off to Housing Associations like Lewisham? Maybe we could adopt them as landlords since we're now in Greenwich?

    Actually as far as Lewisham is concerned Deptford doesn't exist anyway, we're New Cross!

  14. Another question for Darryl: how do you know our Tory leaflets came via Royal Mail? They may not have.

  15. That's a good point, Sue. The leaflet didn't arrive at the same time as the mail as far as I remember. (I'm racking my brain trying to recall what arrived in the post yesterday.) Like the sudden but oh-so-predictable local Ruddock visitation that happens every election and only every election, her leaflet arrived at an odd time. Ruddock's arrived on Friday evening - a time when posties should be getting ready for their bed.

  16. Actually, Marmoset, I saw Joan downstairs outside your block that evening. She was chatting to a hunky besuited gentleman (as befits a New Labour PR agent or Lewisham exec type) down on the pavement on the corner outside no.1, whilst a volunteer (I assume) scurried from letterbox to letterbox upstairs....

  17. I don't think us getting a Tory campaign leaflet is a mistake. I reckon they probably printed quite a few (bigger print discount) and had plenty to send further afield to influence the MP vote in other constituencies. They were likely well pleased with it as a piece of literature, it is insidiously middle field and persuasive (but for the picture of Cameron) and knocks spots off the Lib-Dem's mistargeted and unfortunate CRIME, CRIME, CRIME approach.

  18. I really can't see why you are all getting so anal as to the stretch of land across the Creek (Greenwich Creekside).

    It is situated in the Greenwich West ward. The same ward as Greenwich park, Maze Hill etc. You don't here people in Maze Hill crying out 'We are not Greenwich we are Maze Hill'.

    The Dome is not even in the same ward as central Greenwich but again people still call it Greenwich.

    The Thames Barrier is often referred to as Greenwich but that is in Woolwich - again do people jump up and down?

    The area may well be Deptford, but it is equally entitled as anywhere else in the West Greenwich catchment to call itself West Greenwich!

    Me thinks there is a bit of resentment by the Lewisham Deptford folk against the Greenwich Deptford folk...

    I await the wrath of the wingers...

  19. Thank you for showing interest in my anus, Anonymous. However, as the title and address of the blog indicates, this is a Crossfields blog and Crossfields is in Lewisham Deptford ward. The flyer was delivered to an address which is out of the Greenwich Ward.

    The comment, April 16, 8:35pm, about Question Time is, we learn, to be held at the Laban. The Laban is also in the Lewisham Deptford ward and it's in Deptford as well, yet the story going around is that the Laban is in Greenwich.

    And the concern is this: Greenwich has a certain cachet, we know that. But when something happens that Deptford has a right to feel proud of, Greenwich claims it as its own. The effect of this appropriation is that Deptford remains in the public consciousness as some kind of grossly inferior neighbour, while Greenwich arrogates the things of value.

    The creative buzz of Deptford, largely due to the number of artists working in Creekside and the Laban, has nothing at all to do with Greenwich. Yet look at the blurb about the Theatro development and ''Greenwich Creekside'' - they're claiming to participate in that creative buzz when all they've done is put up housing developments in the Greenwich-administered part of Deptford.

    If people could be honest about the better things that Deptford has to offer, it would be far easier to throw off that bad reputation. Appropriating such things as being in Greenwich falsely accentuates that disparity.

  20. Greenwich directly manages its council homes - its ruling Labour group is against stock transfers. (That said, it hasn't stopped Greenwich Labour from trying to take credit for the only big stock transfer in the borough - Charlton Triangle - in its election guff.)

    Council ward boundaries were only established in 2002 and their names mean diddly-squat.


    ''This web site has been set up to act as a virtual community for the residents of Millennium Quay, Deptford. London. Although this web site is not officially run by the Residents Association it works in close association with it.''

    And all credit to the residents of Millennium Quay for knowing where they are.

  22. Anonymous, looking at the boundary map you sent me shows everyone west of the Creek and south of Creek Road as outside Greenwich West. That is where we are. If I am wrong then something is badly wrong. We pay our taxes to Lewisham, we are administered by Lewisham Homes. There is no anal about it.

    Therefore we can be tenacious and justifiably pedantic.

    There is no Tory propaganda on our doorsteps promoting the 23-26 year old (going on 85) Tory novice Gemma who is actually standing in our constituency and doesn't stand a chance. The party obviously thinks she needs some outside help from a more ridiculously overfunded bid in Greenwich.

  23. Furthermore, Anonymous, the boundary has always been the Creek. That is why we can't get the pedestrian bridge across the creek, The Ha'Penny Hatch, suitably administered. If you and your Tory friends think this side of the Creek is Greenwich then there should be no problem getting the lighting sorted etc.
    Whether Tory or Labour you would both like to PFI it and have them charge us to cross it. Ha'Penny Hatch, look it up.

    Unfortunately there is no love between the two boroughs and we are the losers. Still that's no excuse for ignoramuses like you to rewrite the boundaries based on a low resolution map from the internet. Come on, where are you? Oxfordshire?

  24. How soon you jump to assume I am a Tory. I guess it doesn't surprise me though as you don't seem to think others may have differing opinions and are quick to shoot people with differing views down.

    For the record I have always voted Labour (although I must admit I am confused this time as not a keen Brownite!).

    And no I don't live in Hampshire - I live in Deptford (the bit controlled by Greenwich).

    My point was simply that the bit controlled by Lewisham always seems to knock us. I never knock your bit. Have consideration for you local neighbours.

  25. ''My point was simply that the bit controlled by Lewisham always seems to knock us. I never knock your bit. Have consideration for you local neighbours.''

    Anon, I know your quote was responding to MD, but I wanted to give my point of view.

    I have no antagonism towards people living in the Greenwich-administered part of Deptford and I applauded the link above. And it's not a question of political allegiance for me. Where I object, though, is when developers and estate agents seek to capitalise on the Greenwich label - to the detriment of Deptford taken as a whole. There's a good bits/bad bits cherry-picking going on. And it does annoy other areas. 853's blog has commented on appearances of ''Greenwich SE18'' ( the second 2 paragraphs deal very well with the ''Is this petty?'' argument - as well as the disappearance of Charlton from Greenwich council publicity (

    As for the respective councils, we share a common problem - the remoteness of Greenwich council, located in Woolwich and Lewisham Council, located in Catford. We have two very distant authorities, and this distance affects the quality of service and investment on the outposts of their respective empires. Any visit to Norman Road will remind you of the lack of street and pavement cleaning there. It's clearly Greenwich but it's off their map. And talking of ''off their map,'' the council recently carried out a consultation on a 2-lane one-way gyratory system which would seriously affect Norman Road. Yet with the maps that they circulated with the consultation, they chose to use a map that did not show the Ha'penny Hatch, which is the only traffic-free cycle route into West Greenwich. So the fact that cyclists would no longer be able to get directly into West Greenwich was hidden from the public.

    And, to counter accusations of anti-Greenwich bias, Lewisham Council's history in Deptford is a long and shameful story of neglect. Part of that neglect involves suppressing the very name of Deptford. This is why when you get to the bridge coming down the A2 you are greeted with ''Welcome to Lewisham'' signs. Our local election ward does not mention the D-word either. Gone is Grinling Gibbons ward (that pointed to Deptford's history) and we now find ourselves in New Cross ward. When something positive comes along in Deptford what tries to take credit - oh yes, ''Creative Lewisham.'' The Laban disappears into Greenwich, and so on.

  26. Thanks Marmoset - you make sense.

    I think what we should probably agree on (before we come to virtual fisticuffs!) is that this is a good community - you host an excellent blog and I am reading this because I have an interest in my local area (ie the sort of person that takes an interest in their local society). I also read and post to the Dame and Phantom. I therefore like to think we both are here to fight for the cause of local residents. This can only be good.

    It is not a matter of politics - there are good torys and bad socialists. One should not be short sighted to tar everyone with the same brush as some of your readers do. I like to think I have an open mind and it just winds me up when people aren't open to hearing another view. I must admit I think I am coming to the stage where I would welcome any party who would fight passionately for this ward than a labour member who couldn't give a toss.

    For what it is worth I also totally agree that Greenwich council neglects this part as Lewisham does with yours! Bring on the election...


    Deptford, Greenwich West Ward ;-)

  27. Ah.......had you all been to the new "Discover Greenwich" centre you would know that Laban IS most definitely in..........Greenwich!!!

  28. Did I mention cultural theft, shipwright? I didn't know that the Discover Greenwich centre was perpetuating the myth, though I have tried searching ''Laban'' on the Greenwich Council website and the results somewhat back up my case because they count it as a Greenwich resource - though on one link, Cultural Assets, they say this:

    ''Greenwich has a wealth of cultural assets ranging from the World Heritage Site visitor attractions of the National Maritime Museum and Greenwich Park, to performance venues such as Greenwich Theatre, and is home to over 1000 artists, musicians and performers. The recently built Laban Centre, Europe’s largest dance school is situated on the Lewisham borders.

    So at least Lewisham gets a mention - once - but only to minimise the Greenwich Over-Reach. It's only on the border. Whole countries have been annexed because they're on somebody else's border...

  29. Many apologies to Anon for being so rude. Mistakenly thought you were defending the Tory leaflet and didn't realise you lived in the area. Sorry!

    Does anyone remember a few years back when there was a campaign to reclaim Deptford as a separate borough, and reinstate the Town Hall (before it was bought by Goldsmiths). There was an elderly rastafarian who used to cycle round with a ghetto blaster who was nominated to be the King of Deptford...

  30. A couple of years ago Greenwich Council did a publicity video called "Destination Greenwich" which featured a lingering shot of the Laban centre. Well, you can *see* it from the London Borough of Greenwich...

  31. So was that the Laban on Question Time, Marmoset? I went by earlier, seemed pretty quiet...

  32. You know, I was suffering debate fatigue after having watched the run-in programme on Sky News and then the debate itself, that I completely forgot about Question Time.

    I suppose it wouldn't be too difficult to wander down to the Laban and ask, though. I'll try to do this today.